The Globe and Mail Update
May 23, 2007 at 2:00 AM EDT
The Globe and Mail: What is your vision for Pakistan in the next 10 years?
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf: Of course, I want Pakistan to be a very progressive and moderate Islamic country, and that is my broad concept.
Within that, my main focus has to be on sustaining the economic growth because from that flows the social and economic development of Pakistan.
And if we want to sustain all this, we have to defeat extremism and terrorism. That is the overall strategy that I have.
The Globe: Do you believe that this can be achieved only with you at the helm?
President Musharraf: No, nobody is indispensable.
I think we have set processes. We have introduced sustainable democracy in that all the tiers of government are functioning — the senate, the national assembly and the provincial assembly, and we’ve introduced the third year of government, the local government system. When all these assemblies are functioning, parliament is functioning, there is an automatic system of throwing up leaders. Nobody is indispensable.
The Globe: You have talked a lot about “enlightened moderation” and putting emphasis on education in the country. Do you feel that that goal has been achieved, or is being achieved?
President Musharraf: This is not such a short-term strategy that it can be seen in six months or one year, and basically at the grand strategy level . . .
I propounded this theory for the world, actually . . . because of the turmoil in the world, and the turmoil in the Islamic world. Therefore, I came up with this concept of “enlightened moderation,” which is a two-pronged strategy.
One of the prongs [is] to be delivered by the Muslim world and that is by rejecting extremism and terrorism, and going on the path of social and economic development through restructuring the OIC. It is the only organization representing the entire Muslim world. So this was their part.
The other prong of this strategy was to resolve political disputes and this has to be done by the West and the United States.
And I’ve always said that both these prongs have to work in tandem. You have to resolve political disputes so that the Muslims shun or reject extremism and terrorism. If you don’t do that, I don’t think you are going to succeed.
So, that is the broad concept of enlightened moderation on a global plane.
Then, of course, I’ve also said in the Islamic world plane [what's needed is] the restructuring of the OIC. That is happening — the restructuring of the OIC is going on.
On the other side — the other prong of resolving political disputes — a lot of activity is going on but we haven’t made headway because the core issue is Palestine.
Now when you bring this enlightened moderation down to Pakistan level, now you come to the domestic level and the regional level. Yes, at the regional level, as I said, the contribution is rejecting extremism and terrorism and going on the path of social and economic development.
That has a connotation regionally so we have to fight extremism and terrorism in the region, especially on our western border. And that is what we are doing, and going on the path of socio-economic development.
So, wherever there is extremism, we need to fight that, curb that, and bring moderate forces up domestically. So this is the entire concept. It has a global context, it has a Muslim context, it has a regional context, it has a domestic context. So this cannot be achieved overnight.
Let me hone in, then on education in Pakistan. Many analysts say the problems in Pakistan are exacerbated because there are a lot of young people who are jobless, a lot of people who are going through an education system that is not very good.
So, for instance, you may come out with an engineering degree but it’s hard to find a job because you have the qualifications on paper but not know-how. At an elementary school level, at a middle school level, at a high school level, at all levels there is a problem. There aren’t teachers coming to schools.
Many of the people who marched in the streets when the protests against the cartoons happened were there because they had nothing to do.
On one level, they see all this development happening, all these products that are available, and consumerism that they cannot have. So it is easy for them to move into thuggery or extremism.
Yes, this is the malaise of every developed country. Poverty, unemployment is a main malaise of every developing country, even developed countries.
Now, lets talk of Pakistan. Yes, indeed, like the developing world, we also have this problem. We have to curb or we have to reduce unemployment and poverty. This is what we have to do.
This also cannot be done overnight, that I take a policy decision today and we impact on it and remove all that in six months. No, it cannot be done.
Now, you have to see what direction we have taken. Yes, indeed, we are very very conscious of this.
First of all, this has a direct bearing on the economic performance of the country. So unless your economy is on an upsurge and moving fast, this cannot be addressed, so we are now, we have rectified the economy. Our economy is growing as at one of the best economies in the world. At 7 percent average [growth] over the last four years and we are going to maintain that this year also. Investment is coming into Pakistan in a big way and exports are expanding. New factories. New factories mean new jobs.
So with all this effort we have reduced poverty by [almost] 10 percent over the last five, six years from 34 per cent to 25.3 or 25.4 per cent. Now this is a big achievement but it is not enough because one in four is still poor.
So we are now taking more actions. What are more actions? We call them “targeted interventions.” That is, we now have an internship scheme. Anyone who has studied 16 years, through a higher education-recognized university, will be absorbed in the government at 10,000 rupees per month for one year without tests or without any interviews.
About 30,000 children are coming in. Already 15,000 have been taken in and more applications are being pruned. Now this is exactly targeting what you are saying.
Then we have launched the Roz Gaar Scheme. The Ros Gaar Scheme — the National Bank is going to give loans of 15,000 rupees or 20,000 rupees at an interest rate of only six per cent. And, with a down payment of only five per cent.
So there are thousands of people who have applied and got rickshaws, for example. A rickshaw is about 60,000 rupees to 75,000 rupees They just have to pay about 4,000 rupees, 5,000 rupees, and get a rickshaw and earn.
Recently they showed an interview of a rickshaw driver in Larkana and he said: “For 20 years, I was a frustrated man.” Now, he says: “I am earning about 20,000 to 25,000 rupees a month. I have to return only 3,000 to 4,000 rupees and I get the remaining in my pocket.
Similarly, we are encouraging girls and women to take this loan and open PCOs, public call offices, through a mobile telephone. That is also happening. So this is targeted intervention. And mobile utility source, etc. I don’t want to get into details.
So, this is the real crux, The government first has to rise economically and then convert that economic gain and then transmit it down to the people. And we have a strategy to do that. So, this is the way of doing it — to bring poverty down and unemployment down. That is what we are doing. No quick fix.
The Globe: The business community has been supporting you for a long time now, and despite the events of the past few weeks, it continues to support you. Could you talk a little bit about the economic reforms that have been brought in under your leadership?
President Musharraf: Yes, certainly, they are supporting me because they have all gotten richer by — I don’t know how-many times.
So when Pakistan’s economy is going up, they also go up, every businessman is going up. Every trader today is making tremendous amount of money because people — per-capital income in Pakistan has more than doubled.
That means what? That means people have more money and they spend more money. When they spend more money, businessmen earn more money and there is a great demand-supply gap because they have more money — they are buying more, supply is at the same level, it’s not growing at the same level that they are getting money. So therefore there is a big demand-supply gap. So, any businessman coming into business at this moment, because there is a demand-supply gap — basic economic theory — you profit, the profit is more, unless you cover this gap.
So, businessmen are laughing all the way [to the bank]. Look at the stock exchange. In 2000, the Karachi Stock Exchange was just about 900, 960 or something. Today, it has crossed 12,500. People have made trillions, not billions.
The Globe: And this is because of opening up the economy?
President Musharraf: Yes, that’s because of our basic strategy. I mean, how did we achieve this? How did you turn this around? Because of our basic strategy that we adopted of deregulation, liberalization and privatization.
This was the basic concept and then we went on to see where is the problem.
[We asked:] Why is our economy failing? Why are we a failed state?
And we saw that this was because of our local fiscal deficit, our expenditures being far more than our earnings. Our fiscal deficit was about eight per cent. It had even gone into double figures. This is terrible. You can’t spend much more than you can earn.
And on the other side, the external balance of payments was in deficit by about $4-5 billion a year — again, earnings in dollars, foreign currency earnings, much less than expenditures. When you have this gap, where do you get this $4-5 billion. You run to IMF and World Bank.
And when your economy is not performing and your GDP is barely $62 billion, they give you interest at heavy rates because they don’t want to sink their money.
Therefore, all this had to be addressed and we addressed it. We reduced the fiscal deficit to under four per cent. Today, I think it is 4.2 percent. And we converted the external balance of payments deficit into a surplus. So this is what we did and the economy turned around.
The Globe: What are your thoughts on nuclear development in Iran?
President Musharraf: Our government policy is very, very clear. We are against proliferation. We don’t want anyone to acquire more nuclear weapons. In fact, with all this turmoil going on in the world, we should be talking of reducing nuclear arsenal. So, this is out policy.
Having said that, we at the same time believe that nuclear energy is the right of every country. This is our policy.
The Globe: So Iran should be able to go ahead with commercial nuclear energy?
‘
President Musharraf: Yes, absolutely. That is the right of every country.
The Globe: Do you favour negotiating with the Taliban to fight extremism?
President Musharraf: We have to have a multi-pronged strategy.
In Afghanistan, it is only the military strategy which is working now. We feel that it has to be multi-pronged, and the multi-pronged strategy must have a political element, also a reconstruction element. And that is what we believe. And that is what we are doing in our part of the tribal agencies. That is what we believe.
Now, when we talk of the political element, what is the political element. The political element is the negotiations between warring factions. Who are the warring factions? The warring factions are the Afghan government and the coalition forces on one side, and the militant Taliban and even non-Taliban — Gulbuddin Hekmatyar is not a Taliban. So some form of negotiations between these two. On the other side with those who are not for militancy.
Maybe, there are groups who want to give up militancy and negotiate a peaceful . . . so I can’t lay down whether you negotiate with the Taliban. But if they want to go on fighting, you don’t negotiate with them, you take a military angle. But you do negotiate, you develop contacts ,with people who are not for fighting. This should have been done a long time back.
Because here there is a tribal system, and in a tribal system — if anyone has read the history of this place — never have the Taliban reigned supreme. In a tribal culture, the cleric was confined to the mosque. It was the tribal malik who was the elder, who was listened to, who had the power in his respective tribe.
Now where are those tribal maliks? They are there. They were suppressed after the Taliban emerged in Afghanistan. This was the first time in centuries that the authority of the tribal maliks was eroded when the Taliban came up between 1995 and 2001.
And then the 9/11 disaster [happened]. They [the Taliban] were defeated. They were bombed and they ran helter-skelter. Now the same Taliban are regrouping and doing whatever they are doing.
But where are tribal maliks? Have they joined them? Are they against them, are they neutral?
The Globe: You tell me.
President Musharraf: Yes, indeed they are there. They are there but they are dormant. They have been suppressed. They are scared, maybe. We can bring them up if we were to adopt a strategy of seeing . . . you see the strategy that we have adopted. What is our strategy in the tribal agencies? Wean away the population.
Every individual is not a Taliban. Yes, indeed, every Taliban is a Pashtun. But every Pashtun is not a Taliban. So, where are the non-Taliban Pashtun? Who is contacting them? Who is encouraging them? Who is bringing them up? We must do that.
And this is the area where we can locate people who are not for fighting and militancy, who want peace and they held sway over their tribes in the past. These are the tribal maliks and elders. Locate them. Identify them, deal with them, wean them away. That’s the strategy that should have been adopted a long time back. But we left the field open for the Taliban so every one is now suppressed and they are scared. Either they have joined them or they are lying low. They are abetting, maybe they are encouraging, or abetting or they are doing nothing. They are neutral.
The Globe: Are you taking some responsibility for not having addressed this issue earlier?
President Musharraf: We have adopted this strategy for the last two years now . . . Now, I’m not taking responsibility. Every one has a responsibility for whatever failures and successes.
You see, now, when did the Taliban come up? After 9/11 the Taliban were defeated. All al-Qaeda who were in Afghanistan who were original mujahideen brought from all over the world, who coalesced into al-Maida after 1989, after the withdrawal of Soviets. What happened to them? After 9/11 they were in Afghanistan, all of them. They ran into Pakistan.
So we had to combat al-Qaeda — the Taliban having been defeated. So we started combating al-Qaeda. For two years, three years, I think we were combating al-Qaeda. They were in all our cities — in Islamabad, in Rawalpindi, in Karachi, in Lahore, in Faisalabad, in Gujarat.
We got them. We combated them.
The phenomenon of the Taliban [resurgence] emerged maybe two or three years back. I don’t exactly remember. 2003, maybe. Now, we started combating the Taliban again.
That is when we started thinking that the military approach alone is the way of dealing with it.
But we realized “no.” We should go on a four-track strategy.
So, we adopted the military approach but then we went on to wean away — let’s wean away the population from the Taliban. So, therefore, we started holding jirgas for exactly those people who are not for fighting and reached an agreement with them, and this was the second aspect, the political aspect.
The third aspect was, let’s go for reconstruction. Not reconstruction in our case, nothing was destroyed. But there was infrastructure lacking. So developmental activity I would say. Go for development. Pump in money to develop on the socio-economic side: poverty alleviation, job creation, schools . . . schools with hostels, even for girls.
The Globe: And you’ve been doing all this?
President Musharraf: Yes, exactly. All this, and administrative. Bring the administrative machinery up. The institution of the political agent who used to be like the deputy commissioner there — bring him because he was suppressed after the military came in. 80,000 military troops came in. They took over everything. We thought, no. Military should be in the supporting role. It should be there. But the administrative machinery should be revitalized. So this is the overall strategy we had — a four-pronged strategy. We adopted this two years back. So, who is not doing anything.?And nothing of this sort is being done in Afghanistan.
The Globe: Do you feel the expectations of you and of your government by the international community are unreasonable, given the geographical and political landscape of the border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan?
President Musharraf: Yes, they are most unreasonable . . . Many times, the media is doing the blaming — blaming Pakistan more than the other countries. Whichever countries are involved — if you go and talk to their government functionaries. In Britain, go and talk to the commander of the British forces who has just gone back. In fact, very recently, just a few days back — the secretary of defence. I was reading in the mail his statements, which are nailing exactly this aspect that everyone is talking about.
Pakistan is doing a lot. Pakistan is the only country, which has this strategy, which I have told you. You go and ask anyone else: What are you going to do? And other than the military option, they are not going to talk about anything else.
So, this is an impression, which is being created by the media, that we are not doing enough. And then they talk of what needs to be done here without knowing anything.
We should not be told what needs to be done. I would tell everyone: Come and learn from us. We are here sitting here knowing exactly what is happening on ground. You sitting in the West don’t know anything. So, don’t teach me. Come and learn from us. Come and understand the environment. And then decide on what has to be done and what doesn’t have to be done. We are doing more than any other country in the world.
The Globe: How do you then explain the rise of an extremist environment in Pakistan both in the Frontier region — I think Peshawar has never been as uncomfortable as it is right now — and in Islamabad even. The rise of extremist forces that was not the case before in Pakistan’s history.
President Musharraf: Well, again, we have to see — has this come again, all of a sudden, in three months or four months. No, it has not.
The undercurrents were always there, they have just become more militant. This mosque that you are talking about and this madrassa where the women are, they have been there for years, since I don’t know how many years. They’ve been there but they’ve become more militant.
The Globe: They’ve never been comfortable making themselves quite as public as they are now, though.
President Musharraf: Yes, yes, indeed. This is a fallout of what has been happening for 30 years now, since 1979 onwards. This area was a battleground, in our west, in Afghanistan, where mujahideen and even students from the Taliban were trained and armed and sent in [to fight the Soviets]. 20,000 to 30,000 mujahideen came from all over the world. Armed, trained and conducted there. Everyone — the West and Pakistan — did this for 10 years.
It had a fallout here. And then after 1989 until 2001 . . . all this continued but everyone left. Pakistan was all alone and warlords were butchering each other, ravaging the country in the west. Simultaneously, the Kashmir freedom struggle started. All this again fallout on Pakistan. Then suddenly the Taliban emerged in 1995, and taht again impacted on Pakistan’s society.
The Globe: Are you saying the Taliban just emerged and Pakistan had no role in their emergence?
President Musharraf: Absolutely not. 200 per cent sure.
If anyone thinks that Pakistan created the Taliban — although I know there was an interior minister at that time in the government who very naively said they are my children and all that — but I know for sure — 200 per cent — that they were not a creation of Pakistan.
They were a creation of the circumstances in Afghanistan. The Afghans were ravaging and killing and butchering each other. That gave rise to the Taliban.
And it was an incident. There was a boy who was sodomized and he was killed. And it was this boy’s body which was taken to Mullah Omar by the people, and that sparked the start of Taliban.
He then called on the people . . . and then people started joining. And he started moving out. There were no battles. People joined them. That is how he could take 90 per cent of Afghanistan in months, not even a year. They didn’t fight. There were no pitched battles. There were only a few pitched battles. Very few. The people joined them.
The Globe: And when there were pitched battles, it was people like Maulana Samiul Haq who closed down Akora Khattak and sent his boys over.
President Musharraf: Yes, there was support from this side. Yes, indeed, there was support from this side.
There was Sufi Mohammad of PSNM in Malakand. He went in. So there was certainly support form here. And that was because, as I said, for 12 years, while all this was happening, we were on our own. There were four million refugees in Pakistan. Pakistan was left alone to do all this.
Then 9/11 came and its impact on Pakistan. Everyone running into Pakistan. So, we are a victim of the circumstances in Afghanistan.
And this society, our entire societal fabric got torn because of all that and that is what we are facing right now.
The Globe: What is your opinion on the exchange of money and captured Taliban for kidnapped aid workers and journalists in Afghanistan?
President Musharraf: Yes, I would like to comment. I think — on one side, one a matter of principle, one should never [do anything] . . . that encourages kidnapping. But on the other side, I would like to save these innocent people who have been kidnapped. I would like to do anything to save them.
The Globe: Let me ask you this: If a Pakistani journalist was kidnapped, what would you do?
President Musharraf: (Chuckles) I don’t know. I would like to save him. I would like to get him back by whatever means.
The Globe: Or her.
President Musharraf: (Laughs). Yes. Thank you for correcting me.
The Globe: NATO and the international forces have been criticized for the number of civilian casualties that are a result of military action. Do you feel that this is just collateral damage or a serious human rights concern?
President Musharraf: Collateral damage. I don’t think they are targeting civilians. Well, I shouldn’t say civilians. Taliban are civilians. I don’t think they are targeting those that are not fighting.
In many cases, militant Taliban take refuge in places where there is a population or there are other people, so there is collateral damage.
In many cases, it is even exaggerated. I know some targets we attacked in Pakistan and destroyed. Everyone is shouting that these were children. I know in Bajaur agency where there were 80 of them killed. People shouting around — their supporters — that these were all children. That is all nonsense. We know exactly — they were all militants, doing military training. So, exaggeration also, collateral damage also, a combination of all.
The Globe: When you were in the United States on your book tour, you gave an interview to CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which roused a bit of a controversy. You said something to the effect that Canadians were weeping over their losses when we have lost so many of our men. This roused a huge response in Canada because for Canadians every soldier who dies is a soldier lost in conflict. Do you think this is because there is more value for human life in Canada then there is in Pakistan?
President Musharraf: There is value for human life here also. But unfortunately the people in the West think that their lives are more important than our lives. That is the problem. They think the gun fodder should be from these countries like Pakistan and developing countries. If their soldiers, if even one soldier dies, there is a problem. But 500 of ours have died. And then, yet they are blaming us. Isn’t 500 important? Who blames us, and yet Pakistan is blamed for not doing enough. So, we should get 1,000 killed?
So, I am very sensitive to this. See, when you put on a uniform, what is the uniform for? For sitting at home? When I joined the army, what did I join the army for? For fighting. What else?
Either I have to fight at home to rectify some law-and-order situation or because the oath that I have taken when I graduated and when I put on my uniform that I would protect, safeguard the territorial integrity of Pakistan from external and internal threat. And I will go anywhere in the world, irrespective of the dangers to myself. This is the oath I have taken.
I don’t know what oath Canadians take when they put on their uniform. I mean, why are they putting on their uniform? They should not join the army at all. What for do they join the army? So that is what I am saying.
While I am very conscious of the fact — when we command troops and we go to war or we go into action, the first thing we must ensure is the safety and security of the people, of my under command, but not at the cost of failing in a mission. There is a mission at hand, you have to achieve that mission. If you compromise on the mission because you are going to suffer some casualties then why are you there?
The Globe: That doesn’t mean that you cannot want to limit the number of losses?
President Musharraf: Surely, you must limit them. A commander is useless if he cannot do that. But every time it cannot be ensured. And casualties will be suffered. All I said was — I didn’t mean that you should just go stupidly and suffer casualties. But casualties have to be borne.
You’re fighting here. This is a vicious enemy you are fighting and you have come here to resolve the Afghanistan conflict. So there is a military element to it. So in this fighting you may suffer casualties. So this is what I mean.
The Globe: What is your view of regional powers in the current Afghanistan conflict? There has been some talk that Iran has been supporting the Taliban.
President Musharraf: I wouldn’t like to comment on that. We don’t have concrete evidence that Iran is supporting the Taliban. May I say from a sectarian point of view that may not be the case. Taliban are Sunni, Iran is Shia. There is not much activity between the two.
The Globe: How do you feel about India’s growing popularity in Afghanistan versus Pakistan’s growing unpopularity?
President Musharraf: Well, this is a cause of concern, a cause of concern because we feel that it is being used against us. That is a problem.
The Globe: In what way, being used against you?
President Musharraf: Well, I think fanning trouble in our backyards.
The Globe: Do you think the people of Pakistan care about democracy?
President Musharraf: Yes, of course, they do.
The Globe: You don’t feel that it is a Western imposition?
President Musharraf: No, but we have to tailor it to our needs. Unfortunately the West thinks we can import whatever is there in Pakistan. Everything must suit the environment. Democracy must be there but tailored according to the Pakistani environment.
The Globe: You have repeatedly said that martial law is not an option. Yet, Karachi has not seen the kind of violence that erupted a few days ago, since the turbulent era of the late 1980s and early 1990s. If such a situation occurred again, is martial law an option?
President Musharraf: No. No, it’s not.
The Globe: Will elections happen as scheduled?
President Musharraf: Yes, absolutely.
The Globe: In October?
President Musharraf: 100 per cent.
The Globe: Will you be willing to take off your military uniform?
President Musharraf: Yes. The people of Pakistan need to decide that. And I’ll take a decision according to the constitution of Pakistan.
The Globe: Are you afraid to take off your uniform?
President Musharraf: No. Not at all. I don’t have any personal … I don’t believe in perpetuating myself. I have no greed for anything. I am not greedy for money. I am not greedy for any stature. I am a very down-to-earth man. I love being with the people. I love being down to earth. I am not a person who has been born with a silver spoon. I have no problems.
The Globe: The MMA (Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal) had partnered with you. But recently have become very vocal in their opposition to you. Do you feel that is a threat to your government?
President Musharraf: The MMA was never a partner, except they joined to allow me to be in a uniform with a two-thirds majority. They were never a partner.
The Globe: Are you concerned about the increased vocalization of their opposition to you?
President Musharraf: Yes, there is a concern today, whatever is happening in the country today.
The Globe: Altaf Hussain is seen as the architect of violence in the late 80s and early 90s and your partnering with him has been received by many Pakistanis as your jettisoning or supporting the violence. Could you explain why you would partner with Altaf Hussain when he is seen by so many as a criminal?
President Musharraf: You must understand that there is an environment in Karachi and in this Karachi environment you must know that MQM (Mohajir Quami Movement) has a following and Altaf Hussain has a following whether you like it or not. On his call, hundreds of thousands of people come out. Do you have any doubt that he has a following there? Now, having said that, what is the course of action open? I am also a Karachiite and I know Karachi very, very well and I know the environment of Karachi. In 1993, 94, 95, you couldn’t move on Drigg road at nine o’clock at night in a car. That was the extent of terrorism and gang warfare that was going on in Karachi in the 90s. Even at that time, I used to say: What is the solution? This is a following of the people. What is the solution? One is, you keep fighting. The other is, that you moderate.
The Globe: In the way, that showed itself on the streets the other day?
President Musharraf: No, not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Now, let’s come to the reality now. First of all, I know that people are linking me to them. First of all, I am an Urdu-speaking man. But that mustn’t mean that I’m going to join anybody just because, on ethnic lines. We cannot convert this into ethnic. I am from Pakistan. I am a Pakistani. I believe in Pakistan much more than my being Urdu speaking or anything. However, I see realities on ground. Now, if you see the last five years, six years of Karachi, I think the development that has taken place in Karachi is phenomenal from all points from view — infrastructure development, even things like parks, even things like NAPA, National Academy for Performing Arts. So there is a transformation of Karachi for the better. There is a Nazim of Karachi today who is MQM. He is very dynamic. Look at the park he has made. Have you visited the park in Clifton? Now the issue is they have been performing and they are no more, they are not involved in any militancy. Now, let’s come to this incident. What happened now. The issue is that the judicial crisis has been politicized. Who has politicized it? Have they politicized it? It has been publicized by the opposition. And all these people who have converted this judicial case into a political issue. Now when you politicize this. It is an election year also. All political parties want to show their turf. If you think that you can have a free run and undermine other political parties, I don’t think these political parties are going to allow that.
The Globe: This doesn’t answer my question about Altaf Hussain.
President Musharraf: Just a second. I’m going to come to that. What happened in Islamabad was a show of force by PML (Pakistan Muslim League). What happened in Karachi was a show of force by MQM. Now, why did anyone knowing that this is happening — a jalsa — which they know they will be able to get hundreds of thousands of people out, why should you go there to fan trouble. And when you have gone there, when the government is offering you a helicopter to take you to the high court, why do you not accept that helicopter? The interior home secretary is sitting with you and asking you to go by helicopter. He’s asking you, ok, tell me your route and we will guide you and take you with perfection on to the high court.
The Globe: There is archival footage of police refusing to interfere.
President Musharraf: Yeah. First of all, your question was my involvement. Now, let me say all this happened . Even their women were sitting out on the streets. I don’t know who initiated the firing. Who did the firing, is the question. We need to find out and punish the culprits and take action. That is where I am against. Now, who the hell did the firing? Who the hell did the killing? But the political response was a natural response. If they had not done it they would have these people were going to go with all their supporters all over Karachi. They were not going to the High Court. They were going to Malir and Quaid-e-Azam Mazaar, roaming around all over Karachi and showing that Karachi is supportive of the opposition, the political parties. So therefore a reaction by MQM. Therefore a reaction in Islamabad by PML to show that the people are with us, and not with you. So this is a political game going on, politicized by them.
The Globe: Why was there a breakdown in law and order?
President Musharraf: Now the police action. It’s not so easy. If you think that police can come when there is firing going on. Let me assure you that I personally told them, that if you are doing this then make sure that wherever you are, never should you come in contact with opposition groups and that is where you need to have barricades in front and back, don’t come into contact, don’t get into militancy, don’t come into contact with opposition parties.
The Globe: So MQM did not listen to your advice.
President Musharraf: Yes, indeed. How did the firing take place, I don’t know. We need to find that out. Who initiated the firing but to cast aspersions this is exactly what the opposition wants to do. Opposition knows that if they want to destabilize the government and if they want to destabilize the ruling political party, what is the centre of gravity. I am the centre of gravity, they think. If they can destabilize me they will achieve their goals. And therefore everyone is targeting me. For anything that is happening, they are targeting me. Now this has happened, so they are targeting me, that this man is Urdu-speaking, and MQM is Urdu speaking, and therefore there is a collusion and thighs man can go. I don’t believe in these killings and I think normalcy is returning to Karachi. It was most unfortunate that the killings took place and my heart bleeds for whatever happened in Karachi because for seven years there was so much peace and so much development, and so much development in the pipeline. There is an overhead extra space in Karachi at the moment and there are so many projects that I have to go and launch. This water purification project, this desalinization project, which I have to go and launch and there is the water going into the sea. We have plans to develop a sewerage treatment plant so we can clean up this water. There are so many development projects coming up there. I want Karachi to be a beautiful Karachi and this is the contribution I must say of the present Nazim: six underpasses and flyovers, which I inaugurated in eight — 10 months. This is the development of Karachi. It is unfortunate that peace has been disturbed. And I would like to blame the opposition for politicizing this whole dispute and I would like to blame these people who went in spite of the fact that Karachi is the MQM’s stronghold. You cannot politicize in the stronghold of another party. You either are expecting them to stay low and in 2007 elections they lose ground because people see, where is the strength. So, you are asking for trouble. And then throwing the whole blame on others.
The Globe: Will you partner with Benazir Bhutto?
President Musharraf: I would like to partner with all moderate forces because the future is after the elections, or during the elections also. We must defeat the extremists. We must partner with moderate forces to defeat the extremists.
The Globe: Is Benazir a potential moderate force?
President Musharraf: Yes, she is a moderate force.
Popularity: 5% [?]
